# Ants module availability in xp65 analysis3 kernels **URL:** \ **Category:** Infrastructure\ **Tags:** python, help, conda\ **Created:** [29 August 2025 02:09 UTC](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/ants-module-availability-in-xp65-analysis3-kernels/5149 "2025-08-29T02:09:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bethanwhite](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/forum.access-hive.org.au/bethanwhite/32/3080_2.png) [@bethanwhite](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/u/bethanwhite)\ **Post date:** [29 August 2025 02:09 UTC](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/ants-module-availability-in-xp65-analysis3-kernels/5149/1 "2025-08-29T02:09:21Z")
The ants module is a key piece of software not just for running Met Office family models but also for working on analysis of their outputs. Having transitioned from hh5 to xp65, I’ve been struggling to find out where ants is available and where it is not. Some of my previously saved settings worked and some don’t. I’ve tracked this down to which conda environment was being loaded in each of my saved settings. Last week I worked through all the xp65 analysis3 kernels and discovered that ants is available in the pre-2025 kernels, as well as the _unstable (==last week’s unstable)_ kernel. I’ll list them explicitly below for anyone else who may be searching for the same answers. As of last week, the xp65 kernels that the ants module _ **is** _ available in are: 24.07 24.11 24.12 25.08 (== unstable, defined as of last week) While ants is _ **not** _ in the following xp65 kernels: 25.01 25.02 25.03 25.04 25.05 25.06 25.07 ( == current stable) However, I’ve just spun up an ARE session today (29 August) with the unstable kernel loaded, and ants is no longer available. Checking the kernel list, it appears that the latest kernel is now 25.09 (which I assume has now become the default unstable kernel), while the default stable kernel is still 25.07. Crucially, ants is in _neither_ of these default kernels. Some communication around this is crucial. If ants is not going to be made available in every kernel, could ACCESS-NRI maintain a list of ants-enabled xp65 kernels with that we can refer to, so that we’re not loading a default kernel that it then disappears from? ---
**Author:** ![paigem](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/forum.access-hive.org.au/paigem/32/928_2.png) [@paigem](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/u/paigem)\ **Post date:** [29 August 2025 05:53 UTC](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/ants-module-availability-in-xp65-analysis3-kernels/5149/2 "2025-08-29T05:53:58Z")
Thanks for your post @bethanwhite! I’ll find someone to help you with this, and in the meantime you might want to check out [this GitHub issue](https://github.com/ACCESS-NRI/ACCESS-Analysis-Conda/issues/222#issuecomment-2885427354) about the Ants module in `analysis3` on xp65. ---
**Author:** ![rbeucher](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/forum.access-hive.org.au/rbeucher/32/11_2.png) [@rbeucher](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/u/rbeucher)\ **Post date:** [29 August 2025 06:04 UTC](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/ants-module-availability-in-xp65-analysis3-kernels/5149/3 "2025-08-29T06:04:48Z")
**Hi @bethanwhite,** Thank you for your message. Deploying _ants_ in the `xp65` project has been challenging. The version available in the 24-series was outdated and caused multiple conflicts, which prevented deployment. We are addressing this by updating the conda packages for _ants_ in the ACCESS-NRI conda channel. You may have noticed it appearing in both the `25.08` and `25.09` environments. I ran into issues finalising it in `25.08`, so I decided to create `25.09` as a fresh starting point. At present, `25.07` remains the stable environment, while `25.09` is still under development and has not been officially released. ---
**Author:** ![rbeucher](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/forum.access-hive.org.au/rbeucher/32/11_2.png) [@rbeucher](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/u/rbeucher)\ **Post date:** [29 August 2025 06:07 UTC](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/ants-module-availability-in-xp65-analysis3-kernels/5149/4 "2025-08-29T06:07:59Z")
> [@bethanwhite](#): > > Some communication around this is crucial. If ants is not going to be made available in every kernel, could ACCESS-NRI maintain a list of ants-enabled xp65 kernels with that we can refer to, so that we’re not loading a default kernel that it then disappears from? The environments are frozen at the end of each month so no package will be removed from them after that. Updates can happen at any time without notice for the unstable (current month) environment. ---
**Author:** ![rbeucher](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/forum.access-hive.org.au/rbeucher/32/11_2.png) [@rbeucher](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/u/rbeucher)\ **Post date:** [29 August 2025 06:10 UTC](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/ants-module-availability-in-xp65-analysis3-kernels/5149/5 "2025-08-29T06:10:08Z")
---
**Author:** ![bethanwhite](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/forum.access-hive.org.au/bethanwhite/32/3080_2.png) [@bethanwhite](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/u/bethanwhite)\ **Post date:** [29 August 2025 06:14 UTC](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/ants-module-availability-in-xp65-analysis3-kernels/5149/6 "2025-08-29T06:14:02Z")
Thank you @rbeucher . It was actually coming up as not available in 25.09 earlier today- but perhaps that’s too fresh an unstable environment? ---
**Author:** ![rbeucher](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/forum.access-hive.org.au/rbeucher/32/11_2.png) [@rbeucher](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/u/rbeucher)\ **Post date:** [29 August 2025 06:20 UTC](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/ants-module-availability-in-xp65-analysis3-kernels/5149/7 "2025-08-29T06:20:25Z")
It is still not available but we are working on it. I got most of the UM packages to work (mule, etc) but `ants` conflicts with the version of iris required by other packages. See here: [Adding ants by rbeucher · Pull Request #292 · ACCESS-NRI/ACCESS-Analysis-Conda · GitHub](https://github.com/ACCESS-NRI/ACCESS-Analysis-Conda/pull/292) ---
**Author:** ![bethanwhite](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/forum.access-hive.org.au/bethanwhite/32/3080_2.png) [@bethanwhite](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/u/bethanwhite)\ **Post date:** [29 August 2025 06:40 UTC](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/ants-module-availability-in-xp65-analysis3-kernels/5149/8 "2025-08-29T06:40:34Z")
Thanks @rbeucher , I appreciate your work on getting a tricky package working. ---
**Author:** ![rbeucher](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/forum.access-hive.org.au/rbeucher/32/11_2.png) [@rbeucher](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/u/rbeucher)\ **Post date:** [29 August 2025 06:53 UTC](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/ants-module-availability-in-xp65-analysis3-kernels/5149/9 "2025-08-29T06:53:58Z")
@atteggiani has some background information that would be useful I think. ---
**Author:** ![atteggiani](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/forum.access-hive.org.au/atteggiani/32/212_2.png) [@atteggiani](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/u/atteggiani)\ **Post date:** [3 September 2025 01:08 UTC](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/ants-module-availability-in-xp65-analysis3-kernels/5149/10 "2025-09-03T01:08:12Z")
Hi @bethanwhite, I understand `ants` is an important module to work with the ACCESS models which have the UM as their atmospheric component. Unfortunately, there are a few problems with the `ants` package that ACCESS-NRI can do very little to circumvent. ### Issues with the `ants` package 1. The package doesn’t have a list of dependencies in its [pyproject.toml](https://code.metoffice.gov.uk/svn/ancil/ants/tags/2.1.0/pyproject.toml), so their dependencies must be “inferred” from the [official installation instructions](https://code.metoffice.gov.uk/doc/ancil/ants/latest/install.html) 2. The official installation instructions consider `ants` almost as an “application” rather than a “package”, as it needs a proper set environment (often with dependencies pinned to the build version). However, `ants` is not an application and is supposed to be used also as a Python API. 3. Related to the above, the very strict dependency pinning (like `dask`, `iris`, etc.), make `ants` almost impossible to be safely installed in environments such as `conda/analysis3` (but also in any other “multi-purpose” python environment) 4. While I did some testing for the conda packaging, I realised that many of the dependency pinnings are set to satisfy its unit-tests, which in my opinion is far too specific. It probably aims at ensuring absolute reproducibility, but this greatly limits the usability of `ants` together with other packages In general, there is no easy work-around for the points above, and we cannot change any of them because ACCESS-NRI is not the package developer. ### Possible solution Given the above, I propose to release a dedicated environment for `ants`, which contains MetOffice packages (e.g., `shumlib`, `mule`, etc.) and some core “analysis” packages often used in conjunction with `ants` (e.g., `xarray`, `dask`, `matplotlib`, etc.). Some of these packages are already a dependency (often pinned to the specific version or even build) of `ants`. In that case, they will have to be pinned to whatever `ants` prescribe. Otherwise , we can have more freedom and pick the latest version that solves the environment. **Note:** All of the above is relevant for the `ugants` module as well. * * * What do you think? Do you have any other suggestions? Cheers Davide ---
**Author:** ![Scott](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/forum.access-hive.org.au/scott/32/37_2.png) [@Scott](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/u/Scott)\ **Post date:** [3 September 2025 01:29 UTC](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/ants-module-availability-in-xp65-analysis3-kernels/5149/11 "2025-09-03T01:29:10Z")
There’s an existing ants + ug-ants environment at `/g/data/access/ngm/apps/ants/ug-2.1.0`, created from [Sign in · GitLab](https://git.nci.org.au/bom/ngm/modules/install-ants). Ants dependencies are provided as conda environment/lock files. There are conflicts in the versions required by ants and ug-ants - the ngm module uses the ug-ants versions where there’s conflicts. ---
**Author:** ![bethanwhite](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/forum.access-hive.org.au/bethanwhite/32/3080_2.png) [@bethanwhite](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/u/bethanwhite)\ **Post date:** [3 September 2025 02:59 UTC](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/ants-module-availability-in-xp65-analysis3-kernels/5149/12 "2025-09-03T02:59:51Z")
Thanks @atteggiani. One immediate comment - if you are building a dedicated environment for `ants`, please also make sure it contains `iris`. (That may already be the case in the environment @Scott recommended?) ---
**Author:** ![bethanwhite](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/forum.access-hive.org.au/bethanwhite/32/3080_2.png) [@bethanwhite](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/u/bethanwhite)\ **Post date:** [3 September 2025 03:01 UTC](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/ants-module-availability-in-xp65-analysis3-kernels/5149/13 "2025-09-03T03:01:42Z")
But as a general comment - if the solution is to build a specific `ants`-enabled analysis environment separate from `conda/analysis3`, I see no issue with that as a solution. ---
**Author:** ![Scott](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/forum.access-hive.org.au/scott/32/37_2.png) [@Scott](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/u/Scott)\ **Post date:** [3 September 2025 04:32 UTC](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/ants-module-availability-in-xp65-analysis3-kernels/5149/14 "2025-09-03T04:32:48Z")
Yes Iris is a pre-requisite of ants so it’s included (basically all of ants works with iris cubes) ---
**Author:** ![bethanwhite](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/forum.access-hive.org.au/bethanwhite/32/3080_2.png) [@bethanwhite](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/u/bethanwhite)\ **Post date:** [3 September 2025 04:47 UTC](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/ants-module-availability-in-xp65-analysis3-kernels/5149/15 "2025-09-03T04:47:43Z")
Ideal 😊 ---
**Author:** ![mlipson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f8ce5/32.png) [@mlipson](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/u/mlipson)\ **Post date:** [7 September 2025 06:59 UTC](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/ants-module-availability-in-xp65-analysis3-kernels/5149/16 "2025-09-07T06:59:37Z")
Thanks for your efforts to get ANTS into xp65, it looks frustrating! While it would be ideal to have ANTS in analysis3, I understand this may not be possible. For a seperate environment for ANTS, to enable it to be an effective development environment for spatial datasets, it should include: - dask - xarray - netcdf4 - pandas - numpy - matplotlib - rioxarray (desired but not required) ---
**Author:** ![mlipson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f8ce5/32.png) [@mlipson](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/u/mlipson)\ **Post date:** [7 September 2025 23:53 UTC](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/ants-module-availability-in-xp65-analysis3-kernels/5149/17 "2025-09-07T23:53:16Z")
Having said the above, I am confused about why ANTS can’t be incorporated in analysis3, as it seems to be working with some xp65 analysis3 modules. I just tested 25.08 and it seems to be working fine. Can you explain what the issue is with these implementations? ---
**Author:** ![bethanwhite](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/forum.access-hive.org.au/bethanwhite/32/3080_2.png) [@bethanwhite](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/u/bethanwhite)\ **Post date:** [8 September 2025 00:14 UTC](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/ants-module-availability-in-xp65-analysis3-kernels/5149/18 "2025-09-08T00:14:30Z")
I think (although NRI please correct me if incorrect) it might be because of the strict way it treats its dependencies, i.e. if a dependent package in an environment is updated it can break ANTS. I spoke to Christian Stassen about this last week, and he said for BARRA-R2 they needed to create an ANTS environment that was a _frozen_ environment. (@Scott is this the environment you’ve listed above?) ---
**Author:** ![bethanwhite](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/forum.access-hive.org.au/bethanwhite/32/3080_2.png) [@bethanwhite](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/u/bethanwhite)\ **Post date:** [8 September 2025 01:09 UTC](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/ants-module-availability-in-xp65-analysis3-kernels/5149/19 "2025-09-08T01:09:29Z")
(It might have been BARPA not BARRA - the fact that Christian S mixes the two up makes me feel justified that I do 😅 ) ---
**Author:** ![bethanwhite](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/forum.access-hive.org.au/bethanwhite/32/3080_2.png) [@bethanwhite](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/u/bethanwhite)\ **Post date:** [27 February 2026 03:14 UTC](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/ants-module-availability-in-xp65-analysis3-kernels/5149/20 "2026-02-27T03:14:53Z")
@rbeucher @Scott @atteggiani I’m just catching up with the [deprecation of older analysis3 environments](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/deprecation-and-removal-of-older-analysis3-environments/5904). How does the current and future status of ANTS sit within this work plan? [Next page](https://forum.access-hive.org.au/t/ants-module-availability-in-xp65-analysis3-kernels/5149.md?page=2)